[an3k]

Hi,

as a mobile content provider we always want to provide best quality to our customers but like with previous Symbian Editions we have problems getting the max audio/video specifications supported by S50 5th Edition devices.

Nokia Hotline only knows "640x480" but this information is completely useless if you don't have any other info.

We only support mp4 so we dont need information about supported codecs but about its specifications like data rate, supported features (eg. global motion compensation, etc.).

Thank you very much.

[symbianyucca]

I think you could maybe re-ask this in more end-user related forums: http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/

[an3k]

Originally Posted by symbianyucca

I think you could maybe re-ask this in more end-user related forums: http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/

Thank you but i prefer response from the developers or nokia employees who worked on that topic instead from users. Here the change is higher.

At least i could ask them directly by using their email addresses shown in a mailing list regarding this topic (realplayer).

[hgohel]

I agree that this information isn't just an end-user issue. End users know nothing more than what is posted on the Nokia site for that device. For example, take the site for 5800 phone specs even on Forum Nokia - as the OP says, it says among other formats, "H.264/AVA, MPEG=4" which is nowhere near complete.

Nokia needs to post information about the supported profiles for H.264 somewhere, and the question is, where is that posted? Developers need to know this for content generation as much end users.

So, where is this information officially documented?

[an3k]

Yes, most end users don't know more than whats posted on the site but there are also many end users knowing much more than some content contributors. check forums at eg. forum.doom9.org, www.videotreffpunkt.com and many others. I think there is at least one user who owns a Nokia and wants to convert his videos to a Nokia compatible format.

Additionally Nokia can get into big trouble if they say "MPEG-4" is supported cause this means (if we want to be exact) each Part of MPEG-4 is support (MPEG-4 Part 1 to MPEG-4 Part 25) and each Profile of each Part. We all know that this is not true or possible but Nokia said so. In Germany the law says that every public announcment made is part of the contract thus the N97 has to support MPEG-4 Part 1 to MPEG-4 Part 25 and each Profile of each Part.

[Nokia Ron]

Originally Posted by hgohel

So, where is this information officially documented?

In the Device Specs pages http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/matrix_all_1.html

Ron

[an3k]

Originally Posted by Nokia Ron

In the Device Specs pages http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/matrix_all_1.html

Ron

Sorry Ron but there is nothing more than eg. "MPEG-4". We are talking about exact specification instead of general information.

The only information given are

Video Playback Formats: 3GPP formats (H.263), Flash Video, H.264/AVC, MPEG-4, RealVideo 7,8,9/10, WMV 9
Video Playback Frame Rate: 30 fps

So does this mean i can create eg. a MPEG-4 Part 10 AVC Profile video with a data rate of 50 Mbps and a resolution of 1920x1080 at 30 frames per second? To be precise it means 'YES, you can', the selected device (in my case N97) can playback MPEG-4 without any restrictions except frame rate.
We all know that this is not true and since Nokia cannot provide exact specifications we have to test until we find the max. supported. This is NOT acceptable!

[Nokia Ron]

Originally Posted by an3k

Sorry Ron but there is nothing more than eg. "MPEG-4". We are talking about exact specification instead of general information.

You asked for the official site and that was what I cited. I did not understand that you wanted even more information.

I feel I now understand your need to have more exact the information.

So lets take the device specs for N97 mini - 3GPP formats (H.263), Flash Video, H.264/AVC, MPEG-4, RealVideo 7,8,9/10, WMV 9

Which I believe really should say. "MPEG-4 AVC/H.264" and that is the MPEG-4 Part 10 Profile, as I understand it from Wikipedia MPEG-4 article but if you tell me I'm wrong I believe you.

What you are saying is that you need more exact information on the video playback. The best way to do this rather than stumble in the dark is for you to tell me what other than the profile you would need to see listed. Then I can request this be listed.

Ron



Ron

[an3k]

Originally Posted by Nokia Ron

You asked for the official site and that was what I cited. I did not understand that you wanted even more information.

No offense but in my first post i already said that i need information about data rate, maximum resolution, supported codec features and all of such details. hgohel also said that there is a lack of information.

Originally Posted by Nokia Ron

I feel I now understand your need to have more exact the information.

Well, the main intention of my post is that Nokia should care more about their end users. Internally you have all the information but does Nokia know that end users cant access their intranet? As i told, any customer from germany can issue a lawsuit which would force Nokia to provide the features announced on their website, thus its also in the interest of Nokia to be as precise as possible to avoid lawsuits (and unhappy customers ;).
My second intention is getting more information to be able to provide the best video and audio quality to our Nokia-using customers.

Originally Posted by Nokia Ron

So lets take the device specs for N97 mini - 3GPP formats (H.263), Flash Video, H.264/AVC, MPEG-4, RealVideo 7,8,9/10, WMV 9

Right, same as for the N97.

Originally Posted by Nokia Ron

Which I believe really should say. "MPEG-4 AVC/H.264" and that is the MPEG-4 Part 10 Profile, as I understand it from Wikipedia MPEG-4 article but if you tell me I'm wrong I believe you.

Right, that's correct.
MPEG-4 is a stanard of ISO and technically equal to H.264 which is a standard of ITU but the term "H.264/AVC" is wrong because there is only the H.264 standard or the MPEG-4/AVC standard (which is MPEG-4 Part 10) but no H.264/AVC! Its like "BMW Touran" or "Porsche SLK" :)

ITU H.264 is ISO MPEG-4 Part 10 and ITU H.263 is ISO MPEG-4 Part 2.

Cause most people are too lazy to be precise MPEG-4 often only means MPEG-4 Part 2 Advanced Simple Profile but that's not enough since there are many parts inside the MPEG-4 standard with huge differences. For example MPEG-4 Part 2 supports a data rate up to 8 Mbps while MPEG-4 Part 10 supports up to 960 Mbps (yes, 960 Mbps!!).
You want to compare this article with Wikipedia H.264 article: Levels. The first link lists the MPEG-4 profiles and MPEG-4 ASP levels while the second lists the MPEG-4 AVC levels.
While the profile specifies which codec features can be used the level specifies the data rates and sizes. The links are pointing to the german article since the english one is not so well but it just should show how complex the topic is.

However, if you say "MPEG-4" is supported it technically means that each part and each profile of the individual part (and each level) is supported - for sure only if you don't restrict the support later (like "max. data rate: 3 Mbps).

MPEG-4 Part 2 has many profiles, the most used and known is ASP (Advanced Simple Profile) and most of the videos encoded in DivX or Xvid are MPEG-4 Part 2 ASP (as long as you don't enable features which are not specified in this Part and Profile). MPEG-4 Part 10 also has many profiles

I know this is very confusing at beginning but after you've learned it you'll never forget it ;p I also know that the video player application is not directly build by Nokia employees but by employees of Real Networks and that Nokia only modified it thus they don't exactly know what the product of a 3rd party is capable of but why does the lack of information goes to the account of the customer?

Originally Posted by Nokia Ron

What you are saying is that you need more exact information on the video playback. The best way to do this rather than stumble in the dark is for you to tell me what other than the profile you would need to see listed. Then I can request this be listed.

Thank you but its a too complex topic to relay it through three or more divisions. I offer you my help and knowledge so i would suggest that you request a developer to talk directly to me so i can get all the information about this topic directly from the guy who knows them. Then i would write down the required information and post it here or send it to someone who can post them on the website. I also suggest to save them as a template for future devices so we never have to talk about that again ;) and to split the detail shown on the websites. While end users (which normally use www.nokia.com) doesn't really need to know how many I, P, B frames are supported, content creators (which should use www.forum.nokia.com) need to know it.


Regards,

Ben

[hgohel]

Originally Posted by Nokia Ron

What you are saying is that you need more exact information on the video playback. The best way to do this rather than stumble in the dark is for you to tell me what other than the profile you would need to see listed. Then I can request this be listed.

Ron,

As an example of exactly what details are needed, please take a look at this document provided by Sony Ericsson for the supported Audio & Video formats on their mobile devices (link may require a log-in). They keep updating the same document as newer devices are released.

In particular, please see the chapter on "Technical Specification" under Codecs. Based on that I was able to select the correct settings in Sony Vegas and generate video that played back correctly on my SE devices on the first try. By contrast, I'm struggling to get compatible MPEG-4 output from Vegas for my 5800. Nokia could make this a lot easier by publishing relevant details.

I hope you can take this to the appropriate group at Nokia and convince them it would be in everyone's interest to make this information public.

Regards,

[Nokia Ron]

Originally Posted by hgohel

I hope you can take this to the appropriate group at Nokia and convince them it would be in everyone's interest to make this information public.

I will try to do so

[an3k]

Originally Posted by hgohel

Ron,

As an example of exactly what details are needed, please take a look at this document provided by Sony Ericsson for the supported Audio & Video formats on their mobile devices (link may require a log-in). They keep updating the same document as newer devices are released.

Exactly, but we don't need information about "typical" resolution, frame rate or bit rate, etc. just the maximum supported. For MPEG-4 simply list the supported Profiles and Levels but with restrictions (if any).
One example for the N97:

Video:

1. MPEG-4
   • Part 2 / H.263
     • ...
     • Advanced Simple
       • ...
       • Level 4
       • Level 5
         max. resolution: 640x480
   • Part 10 / H.264
     • Baseline
       • ...
       • Level 2
       • Level 2.1
         max. resolution: 640x360
       • Level 2.2
         max. resolution: 640x360
     • ...
2. WMV 9
   max. bit rate: YYY
   max. resolution: YYYxYYY
3. Flash Video
   • Sorenson
   • MPEG-4 Part 10
     • same restrictions as for MPEG-4 Part 10 / H.264 itself (see above)
   • On2 VP6 not supported
4. RealVideo
   • ...
   • ...

Audio:

1. AAC
   max. channels: 2
2. WMA 9
   max. channels: 2
   max. bit rate: YYY
   WMA 9 Voice not supported

For MPEG-4 Part 2 Profile Advanced Simple Level 5 this listing means that the full specification of this Part, Profile and Level is supported but that the max. resolution is limited to 640x480. I don't know if the other information i made are correct, just used them to show something but as for MPEG-4 Part 2 ASP L5 the information i made are correct.

Originally Posted by hgohel

In particular, please see the chapter on "Technical Specification" under Codecs. Based on that I was able to select the correct settings in Sony Vegas and generate video that played back correctly on my SE devices on the first try. By contrast, I'm struggling to get compatible MPEG-4 output from Vegas for my 5800. Nokia could make this a lot easier by publishing relevant details.

I had no problems creating a MPEG-4 Part 2 Profile Advanced Simple Level 5 (but 640x480) video with QuickTime 7 Pro. It plays well on the N97 (even with a bit rate of 8.000 kbps) but videos created with Adobe Media Encoder CS4 or Premiere Pro CS4 with the same settings are not working. All videos were using the mp4 container format (and i also tried PSP and iPod compatibility). In QT7 MPEG-4 Standard and MPEG-4 Optimized are both working.

I don't know but perhaps there is a limitation on Codecs too, so the list above will not be sufficient. If there is a limitation on supported codecs (eg. MPEG-4 Part 2 ASP: no DivX, no Xvid, no MainConcept MPEG-4 but QuickTime MPEG-4) there went something wrong in development process!

[hgohel]

OK I give up. I am able to create video that is 320x240 from Sony Vegas Pro v8, but hours of experimenting with trying to generate nHD (640x360) video for the 5800 has yielded nothing but failure.

Success with: MEPG-4/AVC baseline Profile, 320x240, 29.97fps, video 768kbps, audio 128kbps, 48kHz, stereo, AAC

How do I generate video content a nHD resolution that will play on 5800's RealPlayer ? I've tried a zillion combinations of MPEG-4 baseline, main, fps, bitrates etc. and nothing plays video. real player says it can play it only partially and plays the audio.

Please help with exact settings for generation of nHD content that will play successfully. Thanks!